Showing posts with label Redesign. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Redesign. Show all posts

Thursday, 12 June 2014

Devil Redesign mk II

Ok, my final project not going particularly smoothly at the moment, so I found some time to go back and redo my Devil redesign in the meantime. Behold the fruits of my labour:-
As you can see, I kept the legs, tail, arms and the pose, but altered the chest, head and the wings.  The head and horns are based on some of my earlier sketches (you can see those on the previous post), while the wings are inspired by the Angel of Death from Hellboy II. The end results a lot less artsy-fartsy than the previous one and personally I think it turned out a lot better as a result.

That about covers it really. Hopefully I'll have some newer work to show with my next post.

Monday, 17 March 2014

Classic Monsters Design #3: Medusa

Just about finished Medusa. This was certainly one of the more interesting ones, as least regarding some of the initial designs, and I'm personally quite proud of how the final concept turned out.
 Design sketches for Medusa
As you can see, I experimented with quite a few ideas here. The first few (seen around the top-left) focussed on different variants of the classic 'ogre'-like Gorgon, but later designs started to explore the snake aspect more. One or two designs saw her as literally a mass of serpents. I also explored some interesting variants of how her face and head could appear.

The final design, as you can see, is still largely based on the naga-esque design made popular by Clash of the Titans. However, unlike a traditional naga, which has a woman's upper body and a serpent's tail, my Medusa's anatomy is more akin to a massive snake with arms, with her serpentine hair reimagined as a 'mane' of snakes. She also wears a mask to hide her hideous appearance, perhaps as a vain attempt to retain what little humanity she has left...
As I said before, I'm proud of how this one turned out. In particular, I'm happy with the scale texture, especially considering that, unlike with Cthulhu, I actually painted it as opposed to overlaying and existing texture. Her colour scheme is also based on the colour of real-life venomous snakes (contrary to popular belief, they are not all green; most are various shades of brown).

Next up is the final monster for this project, the Devil himself...

Saturday, 8 March 2014

Classic Monsters Design #2: Cthulhu

Took awhile to nail down a design, but I've now finished the redesign of Cthulhu.
The main goal with this redesign was to try and make this eldritch god-thing look more alien; most depictions of him tend to go for the typical 'green humanoid with a squid-head' look and I wanted as far a departure from this stereotype as possible.
 I started with basic sketches on paper, as always. Just simple outlines to base the design on, each based on some variation of the vague descriptions provided by the source material. I also took some inspiration from the appearances of various cephalopods (octopi, cuttlefish, squid, etc.) and the creature designs featured in the films of Guillermo del Toro
Once I had enough basic designs, I found there were two that I particularly liked, so I decided to develop them both (as you can see from the sketches above). This left me with finalised designs from a quadraped and a more squid-like Cthulhu; feeling that it reflected the Great Old One's nature more, I opted for the latter design.

And here we have the final design. Not really much to say about this one; after all, the design kind of speaks for itself. One thing to note, however is the wings; here, they are more like massive fish fins, which kind of fits Cthulhu's aquatic nature. I also used a few texture overlays with this one. Personally, I'm happy with the results.

Next up, Medusa the Gorgon

Wednesday, 19 February 2014

Redesign Conclusion/ Classic Monsters Brief

So, after about several months and about 5 different characters, the Redesign Project comes to an end. Went on a little longer than I intended it to, but hey, I got some good work out of it.

As for what I've learned (what, did you think I was just messing with these characters for the hell of it?), I now have something of a theory surrounding what makes a particular character design iconic. My formula is as follow:-
  • 2-3 Unique Characteristics - An iconic design is mainly the result of a few easily recognisable details, preferably things that can be seen on a silhouette. The Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles are a great example of what I mean; doesn't matter how you alter the designs, as long as you have the bandanas, the turtle shells and the ninja weapons, you will always be able to recognise the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. The same principle applies to other iconic characters
  • One Characteristic on the head - Building on the last point, at least one of the defining characteristics has to be placed on the character's head. Examples include Mario's hat, Master Chief's helmet, Hellboy's horns and even Cloud Strife's spiky hair. It can be anything, just so long as its a major detail and its on their face or noggin. Again, it's best if you can see this detail in the silhouette
  • 1-2 major Colours - The colour pallete of an iconic character is predominantly made up of only one or two major colours. These colours can appear in different shades, and others can be used for minor details, but the main colours are always the most apparent. Sonic is blue, Pikachu is yellow and the Incredible Hulk is green. Now, I'll admit, this one isn't as iron-clad as the others (some characters don't have a defined colour pallete, some have more than 2 colours etc.) but it certainly helps
  • And as Always, Less is More - This last one is just a general rule of good design, really, but it's still appropriate. Basically, the design can't be too complicated. Adding in little details and textures is fine here and there, but never use 100 shapes/ lines etc. when 5 will do just fine. Some of the most iconic characters often have very basic designs
Now, at this point, this is just a theory, one I intend to test further with future projects. Speaking of which...
My next project is going to be based on Classic Monsters.
Basically I'll be taking a few particularly well-known creatures and monsters and apply the same treatment to them as the redesigns; alter their designs while trying to retain the essence of the character. The four monsters I've chosen all follow the 'iconic character' guideline from above (more or less). They are:-

  • The Jabberwocky from the poem by Lewis Caroll
  • The Elder God Cthulhu from the works of H.P. Lovecraft
  • Medusa the Gorgon from Greek Mythology
  • Satan/ Lucifer/ The Devil from Catholicism
I've already cracked on with the first one, so you shouls be seeing that one soon. I'll probably also do a quick case-study before each one just to give a quick overview of the lore surrounding them all.
Now, if you don't mind, I have some work to do

Character Redesign #5: Samus Aran

Last redesign! Probably should've ended this project with Mario or Sonic, but I really wanted to do a female character, so... yeah, here's Samus from Metroid.

An intergalactic bounty hunter clad in an advanced armour-suit, Samus Aran is a force to be reckoned with. Armed with a myriad of weapons and abilities, she is often seen blazing through extraterrestrial worlds eradicating anything she comes across, which usually includes the bloodthirsty hordes of the Space Pirates and the alien bio-weapons known as Metroids. Based on the character of Ellen Ripley from the Alien franchise (a series the Metroid franchise pays many homages to), her gender was not revealed until the end of the first game, with the reveal itself being a shock for many gamers at the time.
Image Source: http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/102595/2424546-samus04.jpg
Image Source: http://lvls.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/rvl_smb_szerosuit_001.jpg

The thing about Samus is that she actually has two designs; one for her armour and another for the woman underneath. Now, the armour is pretty damn iconic. The massive shoulders, the classic helmet with the green visor, the massive arm cannon. It's all easily recognisable and personally, I think it looks pretty cool.
 ...Zero-suit Samus, on the other hand, looks like an anime stripper. Heck, just look at the image above and you'll see exactly what I mean; she's designed purely so she looks sexy. Worse, it doesn't at all reflect the character you play as in the games; she doesn't look like a solitary, battle-hardened warrior, she looks like a bloody super-model! Needless to say, I felt compelled to change this.
During the planning stage of the redesign, Josh suggested that I use traditional pen-and paper as opposed to sketching in Photoshop as I had before, resulting in the images above. It's been awhile since I've done this, but after this particular task, it's hard to argue with the results; I managed to produce nearly five times the amount of concept work in about a quarter of the time.
As far as the designs themselves go, the goals were simple; make the armour look more alien (the character's backstory specifically mentions that it isn't man-made) and possibly bulkier, and make Samus herself less sexualised
And here we have the design itself. The armour is based on several design motifs from the Chozo, an bird-like alien species with a recurring presence in the series, namely the layering of plates and the bulkier upper torso. I also tried to make it the material of the armour look more brassy, similar to an old diver suit.
As for Samus herself, well you can see for yourself; I've shortened the hair, given her a more realistic body and added some scars to her face. I've also given her eyes similar to a bird of prey, as she is supposed to be infused with the DNA of the bird-like Chozo who I mentioned before.

Overall, I'm fairly happy with how this design turned out.

Tuesday, 18 February 2014

Sonic Redesign mk. II and Sonic Boom Reaction

As I mentioned at the end of the Sonic redesign post, I wasn't completely happy with what I'd created; the overall design was fine, but a few elements were a bit... off. Anyways, Josh agreed and he encouraged me to do another version, which you can see below
As you can see, I kept the general look and anatomy of the original redesign, but instead added blocky, more angular spikes as opposed to the more realistic 'comb-brush' look from before. I also used a more cel-shaded style, which in my opinion worked a lot better for the design. Overall, this one turned out a lot better than the previous version.

Now, while we're on the subject of Sonic redesigns, there has been a recent development within the industry itself that I think I should give my thoughts on...
As many of you will have heard by now, SEGA have recently commissioned a new Sonic TV series, complete with a tie-in game for Wii U and 3DS, titled Sonic Boom. The new project will apparently act as some kind of reboot to the franchise, but the things that has turned the most heads is the fact that many of the main characters have undergone some rather drastic redesigns (see below)
Image Source: http://assets.vg247.com/current//2014/02/sonic-boom22.jpg
So, you ask, what are my thoughts? Well, honestly, I'm all for a reboot of this franchise. Truth be told, Sonic could really benefit from a refresh and considering the team working on the game are all supposedly former Naughty Dog and Insomniac, I think we could be in for a treat.
As for the new designs themselves, I'm okay with most of them. Tails and Amy are largely the same, albeit with a few extra accessories to fit their roles/ personalities. Even Sonic himself doesn't look too different, but most of the changes made are alright; I like that his spines are more ruffled and the neck scarf is a nice little addition. I'm even okay with the fact his arms are now blue; it's a minor detail and it really doesn't take anything away. That being said, he's still way too lanky and whoever added the bandages clearly went overboard.
However, the main concern is Knuckles; he looks like he's been binging on steroids and... well, I'm not sure how I feel about that. On the one hand, it does add a bit of diversity to the body types and it does fit his role as a brawler. On the other hand... might be just the promo render, but it kinds looks like they just plonked Knuckles' head on the 'roided up body. I dunno, it might be just because its such a drastic change, but it just looks a bit off. Who knows, maybe it'll grow on me in time...

Anyways, that's enough Sonic. next up is the final redesign; Samus Aran from Metroid

Character Redesign #4: Sonic the Hedgehog

If you've been keeping up with my blog thus far, you'll remember that post about bad character designs where I basically tore into the current design of SEGA's spiny blue mascot. Well, as my current project revolves around taking iconic characters and changing them, I saw this as a perfect opportunity to right this particular wrong.

As with Mario, Sonic is a character everyone recognises; he's a blue, cartoon hedgehog who can run insanely fast and whose trademark moves involve his spin-dash (i.e, curling up and spinning) and running around loops. He spends most of his games thwarting the plans of his nemesis, Dr. Robotnik (I refuse to call him Eggman...).
Image Source: http://www.sonicstadium.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Sonic-Generations-artwork.jpg

I believe I covered exactly what is wrong with Sonic's current design in my previous post; his spines are too long and floppy and he's too lanky by half. However, these flaws aside, his overall design is actually pretty iconic, with his most recognisable traits being the blue, curved spines, as well as his signature red shoes.
Design sketches for Sonic's redesign

One of the main goals with the redesign was to make Sonic appear more like an actual hedgehog (because let's be honest, his current design barely look like one). That being said, I originally wanted a much more conservative design, as the sketches on the left show. However, I was eventually tried something more like an actual hedgehog, resulting in the design below.

Here's the first version of Sonic's redesign. Truth be told, I wasn't 100% happy with how this turned out (the 'realistic fur didn't look right to me) and I eventually did an altogether different variation
...Which, you'll see on my next post. Sorry, but this one's getting too long as it is.

Tuesday, 21 January 2014

Character Redesign #3: Mario

Another post, another redesign; this time it's Nintendo's main man, Mario!

We all know Mario. Plumber who jumps on turtles. Eats mushrooms to grow bigger. Regularly rescues a princess from his arch-nemesis Bowser. Everyone knows Mario.
His overall design is particularly noteworthy for many reasons, not least because of how little it as changed over the years. However, by far the most interesting thing is how he was originally conceived; everything about his design was based on the limitations of the Nintendo Entertainment System (his hat was so they didn't have to animate hair, his dungarees were so we could see his arms, mustache was added to highlight his nose etc.), making the jumping plumber a brilliant example of minimalist character design.

Image Source: http://blog.lib.umn.edu/sinkx004/myblog/Pixelated_NES_Mario_by_danny1337.png
Image Source: http://static4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120816162011/mario/images/1/15/MarioNSMB2.png

To be perfectly honest, redesigning this guy was a pain in the arse. There's nothing particularly wrong with his design and there's not a lot you can change without losing the essence of the character. Fortunately, I noticed that Nintendo's mascot is mostly made of rounded shapes and had a large head. So, naturally, I decided to do the opposite.
Design sketches for the Mario Redesign

And here's the final result. As you can see, I went for a bulkier, blockier build with a smaller head. As such, it has been dubbed 'Wreck-It Mario' by my peers, although honestly it was intended as a design for a TeamFortress2-esque reimagining of the famous plumber (hell, that's the TF2 colour palette in the corner). Overall, though, I'm pleased with how it turned out.
Next post will be the fourth redesign, Sonic the Hedgehog

Tuesday, 14 January 2014

Character Redesign #2: Master Chief

The next redesign is Master Chief from the Halo franchise.
The Chief is an elite supersoldier known as a SPARTAN, created in the far future to battle the Covenant, an alien order of religious zealots hellbent on humanity's destructions. Throughout the series, he also struggles to stop the Halos, massive ringworlds capable of wiping out all civilised life. He is usually accompanied by his AI partner, Cortana.
Despite being a relatively new gaming icon, Chief is instantly recognisable thanks to his distinctive helmet, with its gold visor and cap-like canopy. Combined with his olive green Mjolnir body armour, he certainly has the appearance of a walking tank.
Master Chief's design in Halo 3
Master Chief's design in Halo 4

However, looking closely at his design, particularly the one in Halo 4, it becomes clear that his 'armour' is really just a skin-tight bodysuit with armour pieces strapped on. This gives him the appearance of just being covered in a jumble of plastic rather than a walking tank. Also the opaque visor makes him come across as a robot rather than a man (your mileage may vary on whether this is appropriate)

Design sketches for the Master Chief redesign

My redesign of Master Chief
I'll admit, at first glance, this one doesn't look too different from the original design. However, if you look closer at the details, you'll see that in my version, the MJOLNIR armour is actually a full suit of powered armour, with fewer exposed areas. Even the black midriff is made up of metal plates. Additionally, the visor is now slightly transparent, allowing a glimpse at Chief's face, which I hoped would add a bit of a human element to the design.
The next redesign is Nintendo's mascot, Mario 

Character Redesign #1: Mega Man

It's been awhile since I posted something. Most of November was spent writing essays, and I spent most of the Christmas holidays with friends and family. Even so, I've managed to get some artwork done for my redesigns. First one up is Mega Man.
Mega Man is a classic game icon from the earliest days of gaming, originating from the same era as Mario. He is a robot created by a benevolent scientist who frequently combats the robotic soldiers of the dastardly Dr. Wily. His games are notorious for being incredibly difficult.
In regards to Mega Man's design, his most recognisable features are his helmet and arm cannon, although his enlarged limbs also count to a lesser extent. His blue colour scheme is also pretty identifiable.

Design sketches for the redesigned Mega Man

And here's the redesign itself. As you can see, I decided to make him more robotic than his original design, since he is supposed to be a robot anyway.
Overall, I'd say I've managed to do a pretty good job with this one (if i do say so myself), but most importantly it retains the 'look' of the character.
Next up is Master Chief from Halo.

Thursday, 14 November 2013

Redesign Case Study #4: Tomb Raider

Genre: Action-Adventure
Developer: Crystal Dynamics, Eidos Montreal (Multiplayer)
Publisher: Square Enix
Platform: PlayStation 3, Xbox 360, Windows
Engine: Modified Crystal Engine
Release Date: 5 March 2013


Since her debut in 1996, the Tomb Raider series' protagonist, Lara Croft, has long been the most well-known of gaming's few female icons. She has often been described as lady version of Indiana Jones, with many of her adventures being spent exploring the ruins of ancient civilisations and legends and unlocking their secrets, hence the name of the series. However, after years of mediocre sequels and failed attempts to breathe fresh life into the franchise, it's fair to say that Lady Croft has lost a lot of her prestige.

Enter this year's Tomb Raider, a reboot of the franchise in the same vein as Ninja Theory's DMC: Devil May Cry. Framed as an origin story, the new game opts for a more serious, grounded approach to that of it's predecessors, with a major focus on survival. To reflect this, the developer has given Lara a complete overhaul, giving her realistic proportions and making her more vulnerable. However, she still possesses enough of the old design that she isn't completely unrecognisable; she still has her trademark ponytail and a blue top reminiscent of her first appearance.


How did the Fans react?
For once, we have a redesign that the fans DIDN'T throw a hissy-fit over. In fact, if anything, they rejoiced! While the old Lara Croft was indeed an icon, it's pretty clear that she meant to be some 12 year-old's fantasy Playboy girl; her stereotypically disproportionate body, with the comically oversized breasts (reportedly a result of a modelling mistake that was never fixed) and skin-tight hot pants, are obviously intended to pander to a male audience, and while she has undergone some minor changes, she's never once been intended as anything more than eye candy.
At the time of her debut, this made sense, as the gaming audience in the 90s was predominantly male. Since then, however, there has been a dramatic rise in the number of female gamers, who now make up around half of the overall audience, and with them has come a change in attitude. The simple fact is that the the old, sexist design is considered to be something of a joke these days. Naturally, this means that this more human, realistic rendition of Lara was much better received than the caricature that preceded here.

Personal Verdict
In case the tone of this particular post hasn't already given it away, I'm very much in favour of the redesign. The fact is, the old design was at best a caricature and at worst an example of just how badly women are often represented in this media. By contrast the new Lara, as with DMC's Dante, is more like an actual human being, both in her overall design and personality, which makes it much easier to relate to her throughout her struggles.

Wednesday, 13 November 2013

Redesign Case Study #3: Bomberman: Act Zero

Genre: Action
Developer: Hudson Soft
Publisher: Konami
Platform: Xbox 360
Release Date: August 3, 2006

Released at the dawn of the last console generation, Bomberman Act Zero was a radical reimagining of the classic Bomberman design. Abandoning the classic cartoonish look of White Bomber, the new game instead took inspiration from the original game's boxart and portrayed it's characters as mechanical cyborgs. It is clear that this departure was an attempt to make the series 'darker, grittier and edgier' so as to appeal to a more adult audience.

How did the Fans react?
The game has been universally reviled, by fans and critics alike, and is widely considered to be terrible in all it's aspects, from presentation to gameplay. In fact, there is some debate as to whether this game is in fact worse than the infamous Sonic 2006, which was released around the same time. It's clear that, unlike other redesigns like DMC: Devil May Cry, the negative reaction is due to the sheer poor quality of the game rather than the fact that they changed it. Needless to say, this particular incarnation of Bomberman has not been seen since...

Personal Verdict
Good lord, what fresh hell is THIS?! Seriously, look at it, it looks like gimp!
Honestly, this is one of the worst designs I've ever seen! It's awful!

Redesign Case Study #2: DMC: Devil May Cry

Genre: Action-Adventure, Hack & Slash
Developer: Ninja Theory
Publisher: Capcom
Platform: PlayStation 3, Xbox 360, Windows
Engine: Unreal Engine 3
Release Date: January 15, 2013


DMC: Devil May Cry is a reboot of Capcom's popular Devil May Cry series by Ninja Theory. The game was requested by Capcom themselves as they wanted the new game to be made from a Western perspective in the hopes that it would stand apart from its predecessors. The result was a more realistic, and grounded game in contrast to the over-the-top antics of previous Devil May Crys.

The biggest change present in the reboot, however, is the protagonist, Dante. In previous DMC games, he is easily recognisable by his long white hair and trademark red long coat. In the reboot, however, his appearance is radically different, now sporting short, black hair and a shorter black coat with red highlights. He's also a lot younger than his counterpart, which fits as the reboot is essentially an origin story. At the end of the day, however, he still retains many traits from the old Dante; he still wields his sword Rebellion and guns Ebony and Ivory (albeit all with new designs to fit the setting), he still wears a coat and he still spends much of the game fighting demons. It should also be note that his hair gradually turns white throughout the game, and both his hair and coat revert to their original colour scheme when the Devil Trigger ability is used, so it's clear that the original Dante has not been completely forgotten.

How did the Fans react?
To describe the fan reaction as unpleasant would be an understatement; initial reactions to Dante's redesign were overwhelmingly negative, as fans felt that the redesign was far too removed from the original design and some thought that the new Dante was overly crude and 'edgy' for the sake of it. This reaction can largely be attributed to the initial reveal trailer, which, in all fairness, did indeed portray the redesigned character as overly crude and 'edgy' for the sake of it.
In the months leading up to the game's release, however, it became apparent that the reboot still retained several aspects of the original's personality and opinions began to change, with some fans growing to like the new Dante. However, a percentage of the series' fans still despise it even to this day, with some refusing even to play the game. So, at the end of the day, reception towards the new design remains mixed.

Personal Verdict
Personally, I've never really a big fan the old design for Dante. It's not that he has a terrible design or anything and he does fit in with the setting of the games he appears in, but to me he's always come across as some stereotypical Shonen anime character (hell, he even HAS his own anime!), and while I can see why some others would like this, it's never really done anything for me.
The new Dante, on the other hand, is a lot more appealing to me. He just feels a lot more grounded and more like an actual person. A crude, cynical asshole of a person, granted, but a person nonetheless. Sure, the story can be overly anti-establishment at times, but that one's more on the writing than the character design. I will admit that as a massive fan of Ninja Theory, my opinion is probably pretty biased here, but as far as I'm concerned the new Dante is a superior design to the old one.

Monday, 11 November 2013

Redesign Case Study #1: The Legend of Zelda - The Wind Waker

Genre: Action-Adventure
Developer: Nintendo EAD
Publisher: Nintendo
Platform: Nintendo Gamecube, Wii U (HD rerelease)
Release Date: December 13, 2002


The eighth entry of the critically-acclaimed Legend of Zelda franchise, Wind Waker is most famous for it's unique 'toon' cel-shaded style. With its use of vibrant colours, hard shading and stylised effects, the game often appears more like an interactive cartoon than a video-game. It also makes use of fully real-time lighting and effects like depth of field blur to further this effect.


Naturally, the characters that inhabit this vibrant world are all suitably cartoonish, and this extends to the game's protagonist, Link; the appearance of Wind Waker's hero is far removed from that of previous installments, with his enlarged head and stumpy legs. And yet, despite his drastically different physiology, he still retains the same general look of his predecessors, including the green clothes, the floppy hat and the signature sword and shield. Furthermore, the toonish style allows Link to be far more expressive than ever before; as players explore, Link will glance around the room, and his expression will noticibly change depending on the situation.


Wind Waker has recently been rereleased on the Wii U, with smoother textures and bloom lighting

How did the Fans react?
From it's initial announcement to release, Wind Waker recieved a great deal of hatred from fans of the series. The cause of this hate was that most fans had been hoping for a more mature, realistic styled game (a desire fuelled largely by the 2000 Spaceworld Zelda demo that hinted at such a game), and viewed Wind Waker's cel-shaded aesthetic as 'childish', leading to many of them dismissing the game out of hand.


In the decade that has passed since them, however, opinions of Wind Waker's style have become much more favourable, especially with the release of Wind Waker HD. Part of this may be because of a rise of stylised games, such as Team Fortress 2, which has cause many to abandon the mistake belief that realistic graphics are inherently better and more 'mature'. People who dislike it still remain, but they are far fewer in number than they were before and most of them have turned their attentions to newer iterations

Personal Verdict
Wind Waker stands as one of my favourite games of all time, and the cel-shaded aesthetic is one of the reasons why. The fact is, it's a a charmingly beautiful game full of vibrant characters and it is a joy simply to watch. The highlight, of course, is Link himself, who is different yet so familiar at the same time. Truth be told, the game is more of a stylistic change than a full redesign, but with results like this it doesn't really matter.

Project #2: Redesigning Iconic Characters

Ok, next project. I've decided to just skip ahead and do the Redesign mini-project. Also I'm calling it a project this time around, as it's less about proving something right and more about messing around to see what will happen.

Look at the following Iconic Characters and redesign them:-
1. Mega Man
2. Master Chief
3. Mario

I may also do a few more, depending on how long the first 3 take. The extras (should I choose to do them) will be :-
- Sonic the Hedgehog
- Samus Aran
- Batman (yeah, I know he's technically a comic-book character, but he has appeared in a lot of video-games so...)

Hopefully this one won't take nearly as long as the last one...